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Fleet tactics
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GLI
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PostPosted: August 26th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Christian Knudsen wrote:
There'll be news about the fleet being destroyed, but the system won't change control as that'll require another fleet from another faction being present in it.


When systems will be controlled by fleets then who will control system without fleet? Maybe such system (where player defeated hostile fleet) could gain status "neutral" after some amount of time (if other fleet didn't come there)?
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PostPosted: September 4th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


FLIGHT IN FORMATION

[Previously on Random stuff that came up]

Quote:
For "convoy missions" it'll be good to have "Join formation" ("follow my target") command/function like in "Freelancer" game. It could prevent "proximity alert" or even collisions during such missions.


Well, "Join formation" could work for fleets too. I mean old command "form on my wing" for Wingman could be not enough when player will be able to posses own fleet (few or even several ships). It could be something like: "Form at my formation" (for player's character's battle group).

WRECKS
I proposed before to make "wreck-ships". It cloud be not only good for boarding and looting but for fleet tactics too. Just imagine that wreck of destroyed capital ship (especially big one like Kamekh) could interfere with ships movement. It could be use to gain some "tactical advantage" for attack... or defense.

You know, gun/cannon shot and missile/torpedoes could be blocked by ship wrecks. (Sub-)Fleets could be forced to "break formations" and so on...
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Iltsuger
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PostPosted: September 4th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


I talked about something similar with derelict ships, although my idea was more finding them and extracting loot or black boxes.
 

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Lexus
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PostPosted: September 4th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


I like derilict ships... I was going to do that at first for a quest, but 'DontMove' wasnt yet implemented... This would add a level of randomness, find a damaged ship, but you dont know whats in it..
 

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sudo
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PostPosted: September 5th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


If you boarded a destroyed ship then you would probably need to buy some oxygen tanks to take along.
 

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Iltsuger
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PostPosted: September 5th, 2010    Post subject: Derelicts, et al Reply with quote


Oxygen tanks were also part of my http://asciisector.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=724&highlight=derelicts proposal. I wanted to have a suit puncture rating, so if you got shot you might slowly leak air, as part of another stat sort of thing. You get back inside your ship you're fine, but you'll maybe need a repair kit to make the suit usable again.

That means enemies would be more vulnerable to fire that would puncture them, while grenades would might be useless, depending upon what sort of alternate rules we set up to add a bit of flavor to it. Bullets might still fire because they might be made to function in space, with a self-sealed propellant, but grenades are cheap and plentiful, but they're also made for oxygen environments.

Ton of other ideas in that post, as well, although some of it's out of date now.
 

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Lexus
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PostPosted: September 6th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Yes.... bullet holes is a good idea.
 

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PostPosted: September 6th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Laser resistant spacesuits are the first thing I thought of for some reason. Maybe three varieties, standard, laser-resistant, and bullet-resistant.
Speaking of lasers and bullets, does anybody know whether Kilrathi weapons are energy or projectile weapons? I've only boarded a single Kilrathi ship and I don't think I had the sound on for it, so I don't have anything to go off of there.
 

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Iltsuger
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PostPosted: September 6th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


I'm pretty sure, at least from the old games, that they're old-style energy weapons that fire a pulse that pretty much disintegrates what they hit. The only reason I think I know this is because I remember a cutscene in one of the old games where a Kilrathi ground trooper blasts somebody.
 

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PostPosted: September 6th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Ahah kilrathi technology rocks
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GLI
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PostPosted: September 6th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Space suits like some "Combat Armors" in e.g. Mass Effect game. IMO right now the game has vests and helmets like for "planetary ground fight" only.

I'm against "making holes" in armor while in "vacuum". Something like this could just "kill" gameplay. Why? Because "even small leak can decompress whole ship"... let alone "small" body armor suit when one shot means immediately death of player's character.

The same for using heavy rifles and grenades inside of space ship and docking tube. Every "way out shot" or shrapnel means a hole in ship's hull... and sudden decompression or even destruction of a ship.

In case of exploding grenade we have "drastically increased pressure" too what means "extreme stress" for nearby ship's constructions (e.g. docking tube, air lock doors).

For saving gameplay I'm decided to "sacrifice realism"... in this case. Pinch
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PostPosted: September 6th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


You really like to use quotes :)

I'm not sure where you get the idea that a small hole will decompress a whole ship, or that a tiny hole in a space suit will kill someone instantly. It doesn't work that way in real life, if that's what you mean, especially with small holes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi1_1l7M8FA

You could also have zero-difference thermal suits, which are basically weird but plausible alternatives to the puffy suits we're used to seeing. If you get shot in one of those, it's cold, but you don't lose any pressure on the inside because there's none. All the pressure that's on you comes from the constriction of the suit itself.

As far as science fiction fantasy land, which is what this is, you could say that the suits have some degree of self-sealing, but eventually heat and air will leak out, so you get an increased loss of oxygen. I think it would be a fun complication, but I like the kinds of movies that show this sort of thing.

As for grenades, say they need oxygen to detonate, that they're not made for use in a vacuum. We already have boarding tubes that are unusually sturdy.

Think about it in terms of gameplay. I think that's an important framework to use. Will this add an extra bit of challenge, cool deaths for the enemy, different tactics, reliance on different weapons... that sort of thing. We can always come up with science fiction excuses later, while we're in the middle of having fun.
 

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GLI
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PostPosted: September 6th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Iltsuger wrote:
You really like to use quotes Happy


It's because my poor English. IMO it looks better than using phrases "so called" or "if I say so". Some terms are more metaphors than actual meaning of typed words... Blush

Iltsuger wrote:
I'm not sure where you get the idea that a small hole will decompress a whole ship, or that a tiny hole in a space suit will kill someone instantly. It doesn't work that way in real life, if that's what you mean, especially with small holes.


That text is a paraphrase (or even direct citation; I don't remember) from one of loading screens of "Vegastrike" game. Heh

"Laser Pistol" that is able to make serious wounds or even to kill human makes holes big enough to emptying space suit in very short time. Bullets makes even bigger holes (or two holes: inlet and outlet).

Iltsuger wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi1_1l7M8FA


If we're talking/writing about "MythBusters" I'm reminding that it's a SHOW. Yes, they're using science but their "methodology" is... debatable. E.g. in this particular episode they "forgot" to tell what forces are affecting a hull of FLYING plane (and its windows!). They "forgot" to tell about underpressure that affects (works on?) hull and widows(!) in flying plane. Such forces could destroy "glass" of window and then rest of the plane.

Did you heard about de Havilland Comet world's first commercial jet airliner? It had some nasty crashes due to metal fatigue. Do you know i.a. where (which part of plane)? Windows! First planes had "square" windows. Tensions in corners of windows caused faster than planned metal fatigue... and planes where shred to parts. Since that incidents passengers jet planes have windows with "rounded corners".

Iltsuger wrote:
You could also have zero-difference thermal suits, which are basically weird but plausible alternatives to the puffy suits we're used to seeing. If you get shot in one of those, it's cold, but you don't lose any pressure on the inside because there's none. All the pressure that's on you comes from the constriction of the suit itself.


In open space without proper pressure in suite thermal "add-ons" will not keep humans life for long. Human body is very sensitive for changes of pressure and we're talking about "absolutely zero" pressure.

Iltsuger wrote:
As far as science fiction fantasy land, which is what this is, you could say that the suits have some degree of self-sealing, but eventually heat and air will leak out, so you get an increased loss of oxygen. I think it would be a fun complication, but I like the kinds of movies that show this sort of thing.


Yeah, sometimes we need "a big hook to hang disbelief". For games we're assuming that Combat Armors can take some hits before destruction (even in vacuum space).

Iltsuger wrote:
As for grenades, say they need oxygen to detonate, that they're not made for use in a vacuum. We already have boarding tubes that are unusually sturdy.


Present regular grenades can detonated under water. IMHO it means that they don't need oxygen to detonate (see: combustion of high energy materials). BTW VincentFirePony played with it, right?

Oh! One more thing. In open space with temperature near 0 K present grenades could not work... because of temperature. HeHe

Iltsuger wrote:
Think about it in terms of gameplay. I think that's an important framework to use. Will this add an extra bit of challenge, cool deaths for the enemy, different tactics, reliance on different weapons... that sort of thing. We can always come up with science fiction excuses later, while we're in the middle of having fun.


Yes, I'm thinking about gameplay. Realism too but when some solutions/ideas are "radical" or "ridiculous" (IMHO!) it's better to sacrifice it.

Please don't stop writing ideas! Maybe some will be used by CK or at least other users could "invent" something similar.
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Last edited by GLI on September 7th, 2010; edited 1 time in total

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Iltsuger
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PostPosted: September 7th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


I get the feeling a lot of the stuff I mention will just go under the bridge. I don't know how to organize it properly so that it'll be seen. It makes for interesting discussions, though.

It's funny, there's this tendency for people to refer to earlier conversations, although it's hard to find the links. This game has an under-utilized wiki page, but there's enough density in the forums to fill a wiki, if only the forums were as easily navigable.

I've actually reached a point now where I've maxed out both guilds, and switching to a Drayman just means slower mission resolution for a lot more money (assuming I don't ram into anyone). I've actually reached The End until someone makes a new quest, or until version 7. Running errands for fixers doesn't appeal to me, although I haven't maxed them out yet. I don't do assassination missions for them, though, so other than rescues there's not much that I want to do for them.

For the null-pressure suit, wordsearch for MCP on this page:

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3m.html
 

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GLI
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PostPosted: September 7th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Iltsuger wrote:
It's funny, there's this tendency for people to refer to earlier conversations, although it's hard to find the links. This game has an under-utilized wiki page, but there's enough density in the forums to fill a wiki, if only the forums were as easily navigable.


I'm using "Search" function and when I'll find post I was looking for I'm changing link for "quotation":
Code:
e.g.
http://asciisector.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=[number]

I'm taking [number] for making link to particular post:

http://asciisector.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=[number]#[number]


It'll be much easier if CK could make some improvements for "quick links". I mean some forums have posts with "#" sign which offers direct link to particular post.


Iltsuger wrote:
I've actually reached a point now where I've maxed out both guilds, and switching to a Drayman just means slower mission resolution for a lot more money (assuming I don't ram into anyone). I've actually reached The End until someone makes a new quest, or until version 7. Running errands for fixers doesn't appeal to me, although I haven't maxed them out yet. I don't do assassination missions for them, though, so other than rescues there's not much that I want to do for them.


Yeah... recently I didn't played much and since "sell boosters" bug was discovered I make some test only.

Iltsuger wrote:
For the null-pressure suit, wordsearch for MCP on this page:

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3m.html


"Marsskin"? It looks like some kind of space activity suit. Interesting idea, indeed. But some serous research must be done to resolve problems with keeping human body temperature. I mean problems with "terminal cold" (near 0 K) is one story and overheating caused by lack of "temperature exchange" (like for radiator) is whole different one. Some kind of "advanced goretex" material should be used. Besides IMHO time required for putting it on could be longer. Why? Well, let's imagine full body "spandex uniform" that is 2 cm thick and it is VERY tight because of "mechanical counter pressure" effects... Ouch! Without some improvements and new materials (that are able to change its volume after "receiving" some voltage) it could be very difficult.

It was well described in "The Forever War" novel by Joe Haldeman - soldier in malfunctioned Space Combat Armor almost died because of thermal shock after destruction/damage of suit's radiator.

I'm recommending Anime series "Planetes" (short review; and another). There were shown some adventures of a team of "space cleaners". Authors tried to present "space realism" as much as possible... and as contrasted with popular Anime series there are only adult persons as protagonists (the youngest "rookie" girl in team is 20 year old). I like it very much.

What is this info for? Well, for space suits of course! Official (English) trailer shows some action with space suits. Opening shows a little bit of actual conquest of space history... and idea for space suits too. It looks like improved present solution for future open space EVA.

Some pictures of space suits:











Official Japanese site (suit is well presented). Especially I like idea of "hard cover" for helmet. Every time when I see "glass bubble" I think: "One hit and game is over"... Pinch
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PostPosted: September 7th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Back to fleets business...

[Previously on Development Updates]

Christian Knudsen wrote:
- Factions can take control of systems by having a fleet in that system (and no other faction has a fleet there).


I wonder how it'll work when two hostile fleets will be in the same system:
- Will whole fleet "patrol" all nav-points in a system to find potential hostile fleet? Or to mark "system is ours"?
- What will happen if fleets will not encounter each other for long time? Will they claim a system as "their"?
- Should they use "scouts" for quick search for opponents?
- Maybe fleets have "loooong range scanners" to scan whole system at once?
- What if fleet with "LRS" and persistent memory will find "hostile" player's character? Will they immediately start pursuit/chase after such PsC?
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PostPosted: September 7th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


GLI wrote:
It'll be much easier if CK could make some improvements for "quick links". I mean some forums have posts with "#" sign which offers direct link to particular post.


 

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PostPosted: September 7th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


I read the first Forever War and liked it a lot.

I haven't seen more than the first episode of the Planetes series, but I have all the manga (translated into English) and it was one of my favorite series for a while. I usually don't read manga, but it was very sober and accomplished, and seemed to be dead-set on telling a realistic story with human beings instead of idea-storage-devices like so many hard sf books.

As far as adapting that type of suit for deep space, I imagine several layers, with a pneumatic system for the outer layer to allow for assisted movement. Not power armor, but just something to help you get over the stiffness of the joints that would come with such a setup. I dunno, it's all speculative at this point but it's a possibility. Would be cool to do EVAs, too.

Speaking of fleets, wouldn't it be cool if there were radar planets? Like, one planet or station in each system would be its sort of "capital", where you would have a defensive last line of defense, and there you could access a system-wide scan that only a huge installation could manage to perform.

As far as the hostile player, I think individual ships are ignored except by patrols. Fleets go after fleets, and that coordination system would be for stopping fleets, since individual ships don't affect sovereignty.

What I'm interested in learning is what might happen when fleets of SEVERAL different factions wind up meeting in the same place :) I also missed mention of what actually determines area control, because if both sides wipe each other out, does it default to another faction? Like, if the winning fleet is heavily damaged and you wipe them out, what happens?
 

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GLI
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PostPosted: September 7th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


Christian Knudsen wrote:
GLI wrote:
It'll be much easier if CK could make some improvements for "quick links". I mean some forums have posts with "#" sign which offers direct link to particular post.



Did you just make it or maybe it was since the very beginning? Blush
Yhyhy... Eeeee
Thanks for pointing it. Heh

Iltsuger wrote:
I haven't seen more than the first episode of the Planetes series, but I have all the manga (translated into English) and it was one of my favorite series for a while. I usually don't read manga, but it was very sober and accomplished, and seemed to be dead-set on telling a realistic story with human beings instead of idea-storage-devices like so many hard sf books.


Usually I first will watch at least 2-3 episodes ("from Internet") and then I'll buy it on DVD/BD (if available in Poland). But when I saw a short movie (AMV) about "Planetes" then I immediately ordered all DVDs. Really great series.

Iltsuger wrote:
As far as adapting that type of suit for deep space, I imagine several layers, with a pneumatic system for the outer layer to allow for assisted movement. Not power armor, but just something to help you get over the stiffness of the joints that would come with such a setup. I dunno, it's all speculative at this point but it's a possibility. Would be cool to do EVAs, too.


IMO it could be "internal" suit for exoskeleton systems (like "Power Armor"). Since we're talking about combat then let's assume that player's character always is wearing such thing and sometimes uses additional armor (like vests and helmet).

Iltsuger wrote:
Speaking of fleets, wouldn't it be cool if there were radar planets? Like, one planet or station in each system would be its sort of "capital", where you would have a defensive last line of defense, and there you could access a system-wide scan that only a huge installation could manage to perform.


Maybe not all planets but naval bases could have better radars/scanners to fully control such sensitive/strategic system.

As for defense then IMO all bases/stations/planets should have their own security forces depends on size.

Iltsuger wrote:
As far as the hostile player, I think individual ships are ignored except by patrols. Fleets go after fleets, and that coordination system would be for stopping fleets, since individual ships don't affect sovereignty.


It was mentioned that fleet will remember hostile actions from player's characters side. I wonder how fleet will react if they encounter such PsC? Will they pursue/chase PsC? Whole fleet or just sub-fleet? Maybe lone squadron only?

Iltsuger wrote:
What I'm interested in learning is what might happen when fleets of SEVERAL different factions wind up meeting in the same place Happy I also missed mention of what actually determines area control, because if both sides wipe each other out, does it default to another faction? Like, if the winning fleet is heavily damaged and you wipe them out, what happens?


Yeah, I wondered before about this. IMHO system could become "neutral" until player will be able to posses own fleet for such situations.
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PostPosted: September 18th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


[Previously on Development Updates]

Christian Knudsen wrote:
The randomly generated ships are now based on the faction controlling the system. This means that if the pirates decide to move their fleet from TC-101 to Vortex Prime (which won't have a Confed fleet in it at first), they'll take control of Vortex Prime and that system will be swarming with pirates the next time it's generated. That situation will also mean that all production of goods on Hooper's Hope will stop, as I've now made it so that when a system is "occupied" (meaning that it is controlled by a faction different from the faction it starts out with being controlled by) it'll no longer produce goods. Consumption of goods will continue though, so the stores will eventually be emptied. At some point the Confeds will of course launch a counter-offensive and hopefully take back the system and return production levels to normal. I may change it so that production won't halt entirely but just decrease considerably, but that's all for future balancing.


I'm still wondering about "taking-control-over-system". Let's take above example: Pirate Fleet comes to "neutral" Vortex Prime system when there are no other fleets.

Will all bases/stations/planets be automatically "taken over"? Without any assault?! I mean such Pirate Fleet should at least "visit" (even without landing) e.g. Mining Base and give them "an offer"... Wink

Some bases/stations/planets could resist (not surrender at once) and then Pirate Fleet" (if strong enough) could assault them on a ground (sent troops of pirates/mercs). Player could join such fight and defend or attack "defenders". If place will be taken then Police Officers could be replaced by some kind of Pirate Guards.

Pirate Fleet shouldn't "automatically" takeover over(?) Naval Base because Confed Fleet was beaten. Such military base has its own troops and should fight much longer than Mining Base. For "resisting" bases could be offered Blockade Runner Missions.

BTW Maybe at the very beginning some systems could be "marked" as Confed's (especially around system with Naval Base) and few/other as neutral? Maybe all are Confed's systems and other factions will try to "takeover" over them?

Christian Knudsen wrote:
Next up is having fleets replenish and repair their destroyed and damaged ships after a battle. One way is to return the fleet to a faction base (retros and Kilrathi will also have bases at some point), but I also need to figure out a system that doesn't require a fleet to return to a faction base -- otherwise a faction that has lost control of all its bases will be unable to rebuild fleets and will effectively have lost.


Maybe "homeless fleet" could use Supply Convoys? IMHO making one neutral system with some kind of "Shipyard Base" for all... doesn't look correct (realistic?).

With supply convoys option fixers could offer new jobs:
- "Deliver to Fleet Mission",
- "Disrupt Supply Convoy".
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PostPosted: September 18th, 2010    Post subject: Retake the homeworld + Ship Pipeline Reply with quote


The thing that sprang to my mind was that any force that loses its home will establish a temporary home somewhere else. That place will be away from other conquered systems, if possible, and will not produce as much repair and ship results as the main home would. But it will serve as a staging ground for fleets to eventually retake the lost home base.

Once the home is retaken, the temporary home ceases to have the home status. If you lose the temp, another home will take its place, as long as there are potential homes remaining.

If ALL homes are gone, then you trigger a "Reinforcements from the Homeworld" event, where many fleets just appear out of nowhere (or a one-way jumpgate that serves as a ship-generating pipeline that can never be destroyed or blocked). Several fleets will appear in succession, and will try multiple strikes on multiple conquered worlds...
 

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PostPosted: September 19th, 2010    Post subject: Re: Retake the homeworld + Ship Pipeline Reply with quote


Iltsuger wrote:
The thing that sprang to my mind was that any force that loses its home will establish a temporary home somewhere else. That place will be away from other conquered systems, if possible, and will not produce as much repair and ship results as the main home would. But it will serve as a staging ground for fleets to eventually retake the lost home base.

Once the home is retaken, the temporary home ceases to have the home status. If you lose the temp, another home will take its place, as long as there are potential homes remaining.


Fleets without own system could have "nomad" status. I mean they should "escape/run" from other hostile fleets (e.g. to unsettled systems) looking for new allies/ships and supply (e.g. from piracy).

Iltsuger wrote:
If ALL homes are gone, then you trigger a "Reinforcements from the Homeworld" event, where many fleets just appear out of nowhere (or a one-way jumpgate that serves as a ship-generating pipeline that can never be destroyed or blocked). Several fleets will appear in succession, and will try multiple strikes on multiple conquered worlds...


If a fleet lost own system and wasn't able to rebuild during "nomad" status then (e.g. after some defined time) should be disbanded... and gather again in better place/time. Of course if other fleet will not find and destroy them.
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PostPosted: September 3rd, 2011    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


I propose to change "occupant fleet" behavior. Right now this game (v0.7.1.3) allows to occupy any system if there is no "home fleet"... and it works immediately after arriving to such system.



I've encountered Pirate Fleet during jump-in to New Frankfurt. I managed with their escort Talons and then with 3 Nexus class capital ships (they're far more easier to fight than ships from missions). So, technically they didn't cleared nav-point but they was able to "occupy whole system"... Crazy

I think it should be changed (I proposed it above):
1) First stage of invasion - hostile fleet should "make a run" around invaded system; at least they should visit (just passing) most of bases or nav-points if there is no base,
2) Second stage of invasion - after ground assault (and "removing" defenders) setting up security forces on bases.

During second stage players could be able to do blockade runner missions... Heh
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PostPosted: June 9th, 2012    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


I met some pissing off situation when hostile fleet attacks me after my jump. Why they attacks me? Well, because one of capital ships rammed me while mine was still "stopped" after jump. Directly after jump! My ship was 0 (zero!) tiles from main cap-ship after my jump while fleet was still moving/maneuvering near jump-point (TC-101 from Vortex Prime).
Blink

After resuming from save I tried it second time and then I saw something strange. Actually there were two Pirate fleets (two [] on nav-map). When I jumped to TC-101 from Vortex Prime I was ready to avoid collision and I managed somehow but then two of Pirate cap-ships collided with each other... and all pirates started to attack me (sic!). I didn't have chance to escape or fight with two fleets in asteroid field.
Crazy

At third attempt to scan Nav-2 in TC-101 I was ready to see something strange. And I did! I managed to get out of jump-point's circle without collision, I saw one fleet jumped out and then lone Confed ship fire back to Pirates and (probably) hits one of fleet's ship... and I was attacked again!
Angry

I propose to change fleet behavior. Well, other "single" ships behavior too but with fleets it's especially annoying.

Fleet(s)/ships should NOT (randomly) fly/maneuver inside of jump-point's circle. Fleet(s)/ships should make fast and clear attempt to jump not just circling around changing their rate all the time. And after jump fleet(s)/ships should clear jump-point ASAP.
Heh
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PostPosted: June 9th, 2012    Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics Reply with quote


I forgot to record movies previously. This time movie shows (see: [RS]) that I managed but Pirate fleet didn't - they stuck at jump-point (sic!). After I launched from Munroe base Pirate cap-ship were still "wrestling"... Eeeee

It looks that was matter of "timing" - when I reach jump point then Pirate fleet will try to "improvise" something because of my "interruption".
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